I will offer what thoughts I can. I come to this not as a ben Torah, nor as someone who left that world behind. My grandparents converted to Anglicanism after the Anschluss and settled in small-town North Carolina. They did not convert back. I was raised secular in the American South. The Judaism I inherited was ruptured, assimilated, and geographically displaced.
I have only encountered the Talmud through a historical lens, not in a beis medrash. Its recursive logic, juridical imagination, and unresolved sugyot I studied in the context of their formation. The Bavli was composed under imperial constraint, structured by plural legal reasoning, and resistant to doctrinal closure. I recognize its language, but I have never lived its daily speech.
The “Yeshiva World” is as alien to me as the Amish—yet it carries a haunting familiarity. I do not know its rabbis, its schools, or its marriage markets. I am not in a position to write ethnography, let alone prescription. But what I can see—precisely because of this distance—is the rupture between the Bavli’s open-ended juridical polyphony and the monocultural crown now built atop it.
I do not write to correct that world. I write to name the historical divergence between what it claims and what it preserves. And you are naming it from within.
No elaboration? It wasn’t fascinating to my great-grandparents who died. It wasn’t fascinating to my grandparents. My mother is Anglican. It isn’t fascinating to feel lost in both a church and a synagogue.
I'm sorry I just meant that it is fascinating to get a perspective such as your which can recognize what I am writing but is wholy removed from the world itself. I am sorry that you feel "in between" both worlds. I too as you can probably understand do not feel at home in the community I was raised in and also feel "spiritually homeless"
After the Third Reich Neo Nazism splintered into a thousand different ideological factions. Among them is this bizarre Hyboreoan Eco-Nazism. The writer of that piece completely misread the Unabomber and his ideas. The Unabomber was not a fascist, but he was still a violent douchebag.
“Times will change, and societies will rise and fall, but there will never be a Jewish community that will endure without Torah firmly at its core.”
Agree with this sentiment. There is still a wide spectrum of communities that can emerge out of this ideal, and I think the one that currently exists is unnatural.
I think there can be many derachim with Torah at its core. They will all have their internal challenges and will have to correct them from within.
To suggest that the YW is any less stable than any of the other ones that exists, seems to be coming from a subjective feeling rather than objective reality. Every community is reactionary to some degree and every community will have to work out its kinks.
My mission is to help work through the challenges of the YW from a place of respect firmly within it rather than tear it down from the outside.
Very few people in Lakewood learn their whole lives. It’s been a while since working was seen as some kind of Bideeved. The phenomenon I’m talking about exists among people working as well. The challenges that exist in Lakewood today are not simply a result of everyone just learning.
I never said the problems were "a result of everyone just learning." Indeed, Lakewood is now a city of ballebatim. Nonetheless, the derech itself remains problematic.
Rav Menachem Zupnick, Rav of Bais Torah U'Tefillah in Passaic, NJ, wrote the following ten years ago:
"One group of individuals whose needs have not been fully addressed is the group who ultimately leave yeshiva and kollel to enter the work force....
"For each bochur, simply learning Torah is lovely – but insufficient; the message he invariably receives is that he must strive to become a truly outstanding talmid chacham or tzaddik..... The message, of course, is that if one fails to evolve into a gadol, there is no one to blame but oneself....
"In my view, our community’s cultural glorification of the 'exceptional few' has compromised significantly the proper appreciation and respect for the privilege of being a regular, “ordinary,” ehrliche member of theעם הנבחר. In fact, not only has such an appreciation been compromised, it has been thoroughly, if unintentionally, denigrated. A generation has been produced that is filled with young men who are unable to come to terms with the person they have turned out to be, tragically failing to appreciate the privilege they enjoy in being an ehrliche Yid.
"I find it unimaginably painful when a baal habayis confides in me, in a clearly deflated emotional state, that he is unable to identify anything meaningful that he has done in his life. He observes how he has failed to achieve greatness in Torah and yiras shamayim. He is neither a talmid chacham nor a tsaddik. He can discern in himself no major, tangible achievements in any other realms. His despair is authentic and profound. Though I understand the disappointment he is expressing, I find it almost unbearable to hear of such low self-esteem coming from a person who invariably leads a life saturated with Torah and mitzvos and dominated by an acute awareness of Hashem’s existence. Nothing meaningful in his life??? Alas, his experience is not a reflection of a personal psychological failing but rather, a product of the hashkafah and general worldview he has been taught." (https://www.btupassaic.com/_files/ugd/cd84d9_d94282e3252f4cf0a2c9e9f10b503e08.pdf)
Additionally, lack of preparation--beginning with a poor-to-non-existent high school education--coupled with a late entry into the workforce, compromises significantly their ability to support a family--particularly the large families that Lakewood culture demands. "Failing" at learning AND failing to make a decent living is not a recipe for healthy self-esteem.
This is not to mention those that cut corners and enter ethical gray zones (or worse) to mach ah parnussah.
Finally, you have those men who don't seem to have the problems Rabbi Zupnick elaborated upon. They went to work after a year or two of kollel and, successful or not, they are extremely focused on making a lot of money (whether they achieve it or not, is a different story). I submit that many in this growing population suffer serious spiritual deficiencies.
They may dress and sound like everyone else in Lakewood. They may go to shul and keep Shabbos and Kosher. But they are completely checked out of authentic Yiddishkeit. Forget learning, Avodas Hashem is not on their radar either. They are what the Modern Orthodox call Orthoprax. Call them Yeshivaprax.
To repair these problems, a Torah im Derech Eretz mehalech is what is called for.
I agree with everything Rav Zupnick says. However, there’s a difference between saying the Derech is problematic as if it’s something that should be altered at its core and saying, while the Derech is strong, it’s not without its challenges and then addressing the challenges while maintaining the derech.
Torah is the foundational text and concept of Judaism. The word Torah (תּוֹרָה) means “teaching,” “instruction,” or “law” in Hebrew. It refers to several interconnected things, depending on the context:
⸻
📜 1. The Written Torah (Torah Shebichtav)
This usually means the Five Books of Moses (also called the Chumash or Pentateuch):
• Bereishis (Genesis)
• Shemos (Exodus)
• Vayikra (Leviticus)
• Bamidbar (Numbers)
• Devarim (Deuteronomy)
These books include:
• The story of creation
• The lives of the patriarchs and matriarchs
• The Exodus from Egypt
• The giving of the commandments at Mount Sinai
• Laws, ethics, and narratives that shape Jewish life
⸻
🗣️ 2. The Oral Torah (Torah Sheba’al Peh)
This refers to the vast body of interpretation and explanation that was originally transmitted orally and later written down, including:
• The Mishnah (compiled c. 200 CE)
• The Gemara, which together with the Mishnah makes up the Talmud
• Midrashim, commentaries, and legal codes
These explain how to understand and apply the laws and values of the written Torah in everyday life.
⸻
📖 3. Torah as a Concept
More broadly, Torah can refer to all of Jewish learning and wisdom, including:
• Halacha (Jewish law)
• Aggadah (narrative, ethics, and theology)
• Mussar (character development)
• Kabbalah (mysticism)
• Any sacred study with the intention of connecting to God
⸻
🙏 4. Divine Wisdom
For many Jews, Torah is more than just a book—it’s considered Divine guidance, Hashem’s blueprint for creation and for how to live a holy life.
⸻
🕍 Summary
Torah is the core of Judaism—its texts, its teachings, its way of life. Studying Torah is a mitzvah (commandment) and a lifelong pursuit that brings a person closer to God, to community, and to meaning.
Would you like a kid-friendly version, a deeper philosophical take, or practical examples of Torah in daily life?
I did not mean a history lesson :) I am aware of all of those.
I am asking what you practically mean by "Torah." I am looking for a definition, not a slogan.
For example, when Trump says "Make America Great Again", my question is what does that practically mean?
Or when Obama says, "Yes, we can!", the same question arises: what does that mean?
I read your statement, "there will never be a Jewish community that will endure without Torah firmly at its core," from the same perspective. What does it practically mean outside of a slogan? Please be specific.
Like I mentioned before, there are many derachim. The important thing is that the community is committed to living a life which is dedicated to Hashem and that’s expressed through its learning and valuing of Torah and living a life based on its Mitzvos and values.
This statement: "The important thing is that the community is committed to living a life which is dedicated to Hashem, and that’s expressed through its learning and valuing of Torah and living a life based on its Mitzvos and values." is a fantastic Mission statement and much better than "Torah at its core." but I don't think you mean it like that.
A good example of how your mission statement can be used is as follows:
* Karaite Jews are a community dedicated to living a life that is committed to Hashem, as expressed through their learning and valuing of the Torah, and living a life based on its Mitzvos and values.
* Conservative Jews are a community dedicated to living a life that is committed to Hashem, as expressed through their learning and valuing of the Torah, and living a life based on its Mitzvos and values.
Their mission statement is "The Conservative movement in Judaism aims to foster Jewish identity and practice by balancing tradition and modernity. It seeks to preserve Jewish law and tradition while acknowledging the need for adaptation and interpretation in contemporary life. A core value is the concept of "Emet ve-Emunah" (Truth and Belief), which acknowledges a diversity of views within the movement while emphasizing shared principles related to God, revelation, and election." which is very similar to yours.
Your claim that "postwar YW crowned a single ideal: full‑time Talmud study as the only true lechatchilah derech (best way to live your life), and it organized status and honor around the institutions that needed that ideal to survive" is simply untrue.
American Jewry pre- and post-Holocaust operated on a Torah im Derech Eretz model (even if they did not call it that) through the 1980s. Toward the middle of the 1980s the tide (NPI!) began to shift as American Orthodoxy became a victim of its own success and forgot that sometimes Less is More.
While Rav Aharon's, zt"l, vision, was always in play, it did not take off until this time. In 1980, Lakewood had "only" 600 students, divided between yeshiva and kollel. It was still for the elite. As it became more mainstream, and to the degree it became more mainstream, the issues began: Gashmiyus, OTD, Shidduch Crisis.
A return to a more sensible, more simple Model would fix a lot of the problems we see today.
I think the issue is also that there are a lot of stupid people with no sechel who are so black on white, so elevating one ideal which should be elevated to them means that nothing else matters. But those things *really really* matter! Families matter! Even though they're not "Torah learning." Community matters. Event though that's not learning Torah. Torah is supposed to be the "center," not the "all"
(And btw, many women suffer because of this "Torah only" ideology, and anyone who doesn't fit the exact mold suffers. And even those in the mold are often inhibited and misdirected because of it.)
Your point is an American disease, and I haven't seen anyone addressing it.
Yes, Gemara is the core, but Chumash Rashi can be secondary to it. Yet the idea is that if it isn't the core, it doesn't matter at all.
This is true among American Goyim too. I have not seen any public figure discuss ideas in their context. You either care about black lives or you don't. It can't be that you care, but you also care about other things. Of course, practically people don't live like that. But nobody can discuss these ideals in their positions.
I don't think this is historically correct. The Gra started the shita of full time learning and this was adopted in Shklov and other places and from there came the leshem and the rebbe of the Chafetz Chaim. R' Ahron truly believed this shita completely irrespective of world conditions, so did the EY gedolim of the yeshiva world. It is likely that their success was dependent on a reactionary movement and otherwise the rabbim couldn't do like Rashbi, but that was not the official ideology, more likely the Gra held that closer to the geula it is possible even for the rabbim.
The observation that there is a rise in the pursuit of materialism due to the fact that if you are not from the Lomdim then you show off your success in material ways . AND in a way that makes you part of the Lomdim , at least in perception…. this is a very perceptive observation.
There is so much revisionist history here, it would take ten articles to unpack it.
I just want to refer to one of the historical fantasies to which he wishes to return us. 19th century Germany. What a success story! Just what we want to emulate. Even as other countries attempted to prevent their influences from entering, we should embrace it.
Reb Yid, learn some history. Real history, not the made up stuff the academic world regurgitates and not the children's versions. Read the primary documents, see what topics occupied the leaders of the 19th century.
Read memoirs written in real time. See what people revered and respected, how they wished to educate their children, what they considered success and failure.
If you don't read Yiddish, you will not be able to research much (which should, logically, lead to your not adopting an opinion. But that's a גזירה שאין רוב הציבור יכולין לעמוד בה), but the recently translated 'The Shochet' is pretty typical.
Try reading Zichron Yaakov, it's often the first place people look.
But honestly, 19th century Germany was a serious mistake of yours.
Let’s see, SR Hirsch, the Breuers, the Hildesheimers, Rav Avraham Eliyahu Kaplan and Rav YY Weinberg of the Berlin Rabbinical Seminary, Rav Pinchas Cohn and Naftali Carlebach( who brought Sara Schnirer’s dream to fruition after WW1, as did Dr. Leo Deutchlander and Rebbitzen Judith Grunfeld. Dr. Leon Jung brought his leadership to NY!s Upper West Side.
The relatively tiny German Jewish community ( a half million in 1939) had an even smaller Orthodox component . Not a bad list of giants of the spirit , with all the problems that German Orthodoxy admittedly faced.
Even the imports to Germany such as Kaplan and Weinberg and even Breuer were certainly of the Torah Im Derekh Eretz mindset. They shined as it were in Germany.
Hildesheimer, Rav DZ Hoffmann , Cohn, Carlebach , and the two Bais Yaakov of Crakow educators Dr. Deutchlander and Judith Grunfeld were German Orthodox Jews.
Rabbi Schwab זצ״ל found his “ footing “ In the Lithuanian yeshiva world, but he remained true to his upbringing in his outlook and activities.
The Torah im Derech Eretz model cannot be considered, based on its results, as a success.
They needed leaders who were educated in a different way, and were never able to sustain themselves. The Realschule had a horrific attrition rate, and when transported to the US, lasted about one and a half generations.
It was a nice try of Rabbi Hirsch, and a truly honest attempt at doing the right thing (unlike many who use him as a backup source, without the integrity that characterized him more than the shitah), but was ultimately untenable.
The Yeshiva world has produced many foot soldiers but time will tell whether we will see world quality Seforim as opposed to translations or even English Halacha and Hashkafa works . The RY of RIEztS and the next generation of RIETS RY are publishing superb sefarim on Halacha and Hashkafa together with mixed Hebrew and English sefarim
I live in retirement in Lakewood after years in Modern Orthodox rabbanus and Chinukh. The number of quality Seforim being published by Lakewood “lomdim” is quite large and impressive. Not as known or accessed as the quality RIETS RY , but the output is noteworthy.
As a person who was involved in the MO world in rabbanus and Chinuch do you sense interest in the war in Gaza the events in Iran etc or a sense that life goes on re preserving draft deferrals and worrying about Shidduchim being the paramount issues of concern in Lakewood?
I have commented elsewhere that I don’t blame “ the masses “ for not being tuned in to the issues in Israel in any deep dive. We are removed from that scene. I do blame the leadership here for not leading and educating on these issues . The average Jewish Joe here follows the standard Gedolim rhetoric without real understanding or insight. Again, I don’t blame Joe. His Rabbanim are at fault.
The Gemara in Shabbos in Perek Kol Kisvei ( 118-119) speaks strongly about leaders who do not properly lead and Rambam in Hilcos Teshuvah speaks even more strongly about those who wrap themselves in Mitzvos but who are Poresh Darchei HaTzibbur . It is indeed a sad statement on our times as we approach Tisha BAv that the preoccupation with draft deferrals and Shidduchim is seemingly a narcissistic attitude that is seen as more important than existential was being waged against all of Klal Yisrael with the clear objective of RL rendering this world Judenrein
I am at a loss to understand what your criticism of Rav Soloveitchik’s output is or that of his Talmidim. What I have learned from the רשימות שיעורים if Rabbi Reichman, the quotes and insights found in the seforim of Rav Shechter, the volumes assembled by Rav Elyakim Koenigsberg, the איגרות הגרי״ד and his insights and analysis in Rav Lichtenstein’s own Seforim published by Har Etzion frankly are nothing less than brilliant.
Rabbi Soloveitchik was a one-trick pony. Yes, it's nice Torah, but essentially one big לשיטתו. He does not deal with the complications of sugyos, with multiple shitos and nuanced sevaros. He does Brisk and Brisk only.
The idea that Reshimos Shiurim is greatness can only come from someone who hasn't seen the other shiurim on those sugyos.
The shiurim of the Roshei Yeshiva in Ponovezh are many levels beyond Rabbi Soloveitchik's. The shiurim of Reb Yisroel Kalmanowitz are far above the level of Rabbi Soloveitchik. As are so many others.
I think that is quite the oversimplification of Rav Soloveitchik’s דרך הלימוד. What I like about it is that he gets to the יסודות הסוגיא so that instead of complicated mental gymnastics and calculations, the details of the סוגיא are drawn together. Like his uncle the גרי״ז and רב שך in the רבי עזרי.
OK , that is how my little brain works and why this appeals to me.
I did not mention RYBS I mentioned the current RYBS whose sefarim stand in their own right as great sefarim on a wide range of Chiddushei Torah Halacha and Hashkafa who are Gdolei Torah and whose sefarim all marked by The legacy of RYBS of a beginning middle and conclusion as to the discussion of any particular inyan
I will offer what thoughts I can. I come to this not as a ben Torah, nor as someone who left that world behind. My grandparents converted to Anglicanism after the Anschluss and settled in small-town North Carolina. They did not convert back. I was raised secular in the American South. The Judaism I inherited was ruptured, assimilated, and geographically displaced.
I have only encountered the Talmud through a historical lens, not in a beis medrash. Its recursive logic, juridical imagination, and unresolved sugyot I studied in the context of their formation. The Bavli was composed under imperial constraint, structured by plural legal reasoning, and resistant to doctrinal closure. I recognize its language, but I have never lived its daily speech.
The “Yeshiva World” is as alien to me as the Amish—yet it carries a haunting familiarity. I do not know its rabbis, its schools, or its marriage markets. I am not in a position to write ethnography, let alone prescription. But what I can see—precisely because of this distance—is the rupture between the Bavli’s open-ended juridical polyphony and the monocultural crown now built atop it.
I do not write to correct that world. I write to name the historical divergence between what it claims and what it preserves. And you are naming it from within.
Fascinating
No elaboration? It wasn’t fascinating to my great-grandparents who died. It wasn’t fascinating to my grandparents. My mother is Anglican. It isn’t fascinating to feel lost in both a church and a synagogue.
I'm sorry I just meant that it is fascinating to get a perspective such as your which can recognize what I am writing but is wholy removed from the world itself. I am sorry that you feel "in between" both worlds. I too as you can probably understand do not feel at home in the community I was raised in and also feel "spiritually homeless"
Alright. I saw recently you describe one of the most idiotic pieces of Neo-Nazi garbage I've seen in awhile as fascinating. So what isn't fascinating?
I don't like Carl Schmidt. But he made important contributions to political thought. That's an actually interesting fascist.
Ah the Ted K stuff? I don't know man I just find it interesting 🤷🏼♂️
After the Third Reich Neo Nazism splintered into a thousand different ideological factions. Among them is this bizarre Hyboreoan Eco-Nazism. The writer of that piece completely misread the Unabomber and his ideas. The Unabomber was not a fascist, but he was still a violent douchebag.
Thank you for the publicity. I’m glad I’m getting people talking about this issue.
You correctly point that any movement that starts off lean and purposeful will ultimately be a victim of its success and swell into even the absurd.
The real question is, what is the central point around which to build a society.
Nuance can be layered on after, but movements can’t have rallying calls that read like essays.
As far as being reactionary, yes and no.
The what and how are certainly reactionary to the times, but the notion that the Jewish people’s lifeblood is Torah is hardly anything new.
Times will change, and societies will rise and fall, but there will never be a Jewish community that will endure without Torah firmly at its core.
“Times will change, and societies will rise and fall, but there will never be a Jewish community that will endure without Torah firmly at its core.”
Agree with this sentiment. There is still a wide spectrum of communities that can emerge out of this ideal, and I think the one that currently exists is unnatural.
I think there can be many derachim with Torah at its core. They will all have their internal challenges and will have to correct them from within.
To suggest that the YW is any less stable than any of the other ones that exists, seems to be coming from a subjective feeling rather than objective reality. Every community is reactionary to some degree and every community will have to work out its kinks.
My mission is to help work through the challenges of the YW from a place of respect firmly within it rather than tear it down from the outside.
Valid
You are offering up an "either-or" fallacy: "a place of respect firmly" vs. "tear it down." Those are not the only two options.
The middle ground--Harbei asu vealsah beyadam--is what has worked for millenia. It can and will work again.
Very few people in Lakewood learn their whole lives. It’s been a while since working was seen as some kind of Bideeved. The phenomenon I’m talking about exists among people working as well. The challenges that exist in Lakewood today are not simply a result of everyone just learning.
I never said the problems were "a result of everyone just learning." Indeed, Lakewood is now a city of ballebatim. Nonetheless, the derech itself remains problematic.
Rav Menachem Zupnick, Rav of Bais Torah U'Tefillah in Passaic, NJ, wrote the following ten years ago:
"One group of individuals whose needs have not been fully addressed is the group who ultimately leave yeshiva and kollel to enter the work force....
"For each bochur, simply learning Torah is lovely – but insufficient; the message he invariably receives is that he must strive to become a truly outstanding talmid chacham or tzaddik..... The message, of course, is that if one fails to evolve into a gadol, there is no one to blame but oneself....
"In my view, our community’s cultural glorification of the 'exceptional few' has compromised significantly the proper appreciation and respect for the privilege of being a regular, “ordinary,” ehrliche member of theעם הנבחר. In fact, not only has such an appreciation been compromised, it has been thoroughly, if unintentionally, denigrated. A generation has been produced that is filled with young men who are unable to come to terms with the person they have turned out to be, tragically failing to appreciate the privilege they enjoy in being an ehrliche Yid.
"I find it unimaginably painful when a baal habayis confides in me, in a clearly deflated emotional state, that he is unable to identify anything meaningful that he has done in his life. He observes how he has failed to achieve greatness in Torah and yiras shamayim. He is neither a talmid chacham nor a tsaddik. He can discern in himself no major, tangible achievements in any other realms. His despair is authentic and profound. Though I understand the disappointment he is expressing, I find it almost unbearable to hear of such low self-esteem coming from a person who invariably leads a life saturated with Torah and mitzvos and dominated by an acute awareness of Hashem’s existence. Nothing meaningful in his life??? Alas, his experience is not a reflection of a personal psychological failing but rather, a product of the hashkafah and general worldview he has been taught." (https://www.btupassaic.com/_files/ugd/cd84d9_d94282e3252f4cf0a2c9e9f10b503e08.pdf)
Additionally, lack of preparation--beginning with a poor-to-non-existent high school education--coupled with a late entry into the workforce, compromises significantly their ability to support a family--particularly the large families that Lakewood culture demands. "Failing" at learning AND failing to make a decent living is not a recipe for healthy self-esteem.
This is not to mention those that cut corners and enter ethical gray zones (or worse) to mach ah parnussah.
Finally, you have those men who don't seem to have the problems Rabbi Zupnick elaborated upon. They went to work after a year or two of kollel and, successful or not, they are extremely focused on making a lot of money (whether they achieve it or not, is a different story). I submit that many in this growing population suffer serious spiritual deficiencies.
They may dress and sound like everyone else in Lakewood. They may go to shul and keep Shabbos and Kosher. But they are completely checked out of authentic Yiddishkeit. Forget learning, Avodas Hashem is not on their radar either. They are what the Modern Orthodox call Orthoprax. Call them Yeshivaprax.
To repair these problems, a Torah im Derech Eretz mehalech is what is called for.
I agree with everything Rav Zupnick says. However, there’s a difference between saying the Derech is problematic as if it’s something that should be altered at its core and saying, while the Derech is strong, it’s not without its challenges and then addressing the challenges while maintaining the derech.
I should add that Rav Zupnick maintains that the Chassidishe Oilam does not suffer from the issues he raised.
(They do, however, suffer from the two that I raised.)
The Yeshiva community as it exists today is the embodiment of "Harbei asu velo alsah beyadam." That's the Gemara. It's objective and not reactionary.
הרבה עשו ולא עלתה בידם is referring to the derech of Rashbi which is only Torah only and others do your work.
How is the yeshiva world with about 80% going to work, an embodiment of הרבה עשו?
Can you please define by what you mean “Torah.”?
From ChatGPT:
Torah is the foundational text and concept of Judaism. The word Torah (תּוֹרָה) means “teaching,” “instruction,” or “law” in Hebrew. It refers to several interconnected things, depending on the context:
⸻
📜 1. The Written Torah (Torah Shebichtav)
This usually means the Five Books of Moses (also called the Chumash or Pentateuch):
• Bereishis (Genesis)
• Shemos (Exodus)
• Vayikra (Leviticus)
• Bamidbar (Numbers)
• Devarim (Deuteronomy)
These books include:
• The story of creation
• The lives of the patriarchs and matriarchs
• The Exodus from Egypt
• The giving of the commandments at Mount Sinai
• Laws, ethics, and narratives that shape Jewish life
⸻
🗣️ 2. The Oral Torah (Torah Sheba’al Peh)
This refers to the vast body of interpretation and explanation that was originally transmitted orally and later written down, including:
• The Mishnah (compiled c. 200 CE)
• The Gemara, which together with the Mishnah makes up the Talmud
• Midrashim, commentaries, and legal codes
These explain how to understand and apply the laws and values of the written Torah in everyday life.
⸻
📖 3. Torah as a Concept
More broadly, Torah can refer to all of Jewish learning and wisdom, including:
• Halacha (Jewish law)
• Aggadah (narrative, ethics, and theology)
• Mussar (character development)
• Kabbalah (mysticism)
• Any sacred study with the intention of connecting to God
⸻
🙏 4. Divine Wisdom
For many Jews, Torah is more than just a book—it’s considered Divine guidance, Hashem’s blueprint for creation and for how to live a holy life.
⸻
🕍 Summary
Torah is the core of Judaism—its texts, its teachings, its way of life. Studying Torah is a mitzvah (commandment) and a lifelong pursuit that brings a person closer to God, to community, and to meaning.
Would you like a kid-friendly version, a deeper philosophical take, or practical examples of Torah in daily life?
I did not mean a history lesson :) I am aware of all of those.
I am asking what you practically mean by "Torah." I am looking for a definition, not a slogan.
For example, when Trump says "Make America Great Again", my question is what does that practically mean?
Or when Obama says, "Yes, we can!", the same question arises: what does that mean?
I read your statement, "there will never be a Jewish community that will endure without Torah firmly at its core," from the same perspective. What does it practically mean outside of a slogan? Please be specific.
Hope that clarifies it.
Like I mentioned before, there are many derachim. The important thing is that the community is committed to living a life which is dedicated to Hashem and that’s expressed through its learning and valuing of Torah and living a life based on its Mitzvos and values.
Is that what you’re looking for?
Better.
Let me explain the perspective I am coming from.
This statement: "The important thing is that the community is committed to living a life which is dedicated to Hashem, and that’s expressed through its learning and valuing of Torah and living a life based on its Mitzvos and values." is a fantastic Mission statement and much better than "Torah at its core." but I don't think you mean it like that.
A good example of how your mission statement can be used is as follows:
* Karaite Jews are a community dedicated to living a life that is committed to Hashem, as expressed through their learning and valuing of the Torah, and living a life based on its Mitzvos and values.
* Conservative Jews are a community dedicated to living a life that is committed to Hashem, as expressed through their learning and valuing of the Torah, and living a life based on its Mitzvos and values.
Their mission statement is "The Conservative movement in Judaism aims to foster Jewish identity and practice by balancing tradition and modernity. It seeks to preserve Jewish law and tradition while acknowledging the need for adaptation and interpretation in contemporary life. A core value is the concept of "Emet ve-Emunah" (Truth and Belief), which acknowledges a diversity of views within the movement while emphasizing shared principles related to God, revelation, and election." which is very similar to yours.
But I doubt you mean them. I could be wrong.
Are you familiar with https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ZoJKF_VuA&pp=0gcJCfwAo7VqN5tD ?
TL;DR
Why:
This is the core belief or purpose that drives an individual or organization. It's the reason for existing beyond just making a profit.
How:
These are the actions, processes, and strategies used to bring the "why" to life.
What:
This refers to the tangible products, services, or outcomes that result from the "how".
I understand that the video above is typically used in a company context; however, this approach is also beneficial for policy purposes.
You are proposing a policy/way of life, and I want to understand the details.
This discussion is missing a "who" you are referring to, which I would also like for you to address.
So my ask is for you to explain:
Who is your target audience?
What are your mission and vision?
What specific policies are you proposing?
What outcome are you trying to achieve?
Your claim that "postwar YW crowned a single ideal: full‑time Talmud study as the only true lechatchilah derech (best way to live your life), and it organized status and honor around the institutions that needed that ideal to survive" is simply untrue.
American Jewry pre- and post-Holocaust operated on a Torah im Derech Eretz model (even if they did not call it that) through the 1980s. Toward the middle of the 1980s the tide (NPI!) began to shift as American Orthodoxy became a victim of its own success and forgot that sometimes Less is More.
While Rav Aharon's, zt"l, vision, was always in play, it did not take off until this time. In 1980, Lakewood had "only" 600 students, divided between yeshiva and kollel. It was still for the elite. As it became more mainstream, and to the degree it became more mainstream, the issues began: Gashmiyus, OTD, Shidduch Crisis.
A return to a more sensible, more simple Model would fix a lot of the problems we see today.
Not trying to delay. Just not savvy yet with Substack. Didn't realize you'd reached out. All good now?
very nice.
I think the issue is also that there are a lot of stupid people with no sechel who are so black on white, so elevating one ideal which should be elevated to them means that nothing else matters. But those things *really really* matter! Families matter! Even though they're not "Torah learning." Community matters. Event though that's not learning Torah. Torah is supposed to be the "center," not the "all"
(And btw, many women suffer because of this "Torah only" ideology, and anyone who doesn't fit the exact mold suffers. And even those in the mold are often inhibited and misdirected because of it.)
Your point is an American disease, and I haven't seen anyone addressing it.
Yes, Gemara is the core, but Chumash Rashi can be secondary to it. Yet the idea is that if it isn't the core, it doesn't matter at all.
This is true among American Goyim too. I have not seen any public figure discuss ideas in their context. You either care about black lives or you don't. It can't be that you care, but you also care about other things. Of course, practically people don't live like that. But nobody can discuss these ideals in their positions.
True! :(
I don't think this is historically correct. The Gra started the shita of full time learning and this was adopted in Shklov and other places and from there came the leshem and the rebbe of the Chafetz Chaim. R' Ahron truly believed this shita completely irrespective of world conditions, so did the EY gedolim of the yeshiva world. It is likely that their success was dependent on a reactionary movement and otherwise the rabbim couldn't do like Rashbi, but that was not the official ideology, more likely the Gra held that closer to the geula it is possible even for the rabbim.
The observation that there is a rise in the pursuit of materialism due to the fact that if you are not from the Lomdim then you show off your success in material ways . AND in a way that makes you part of the Lomdim , at least in perception…. this is a very perceptive observation.
There is so much revisionist history here, it would take ten articles to unpack it.
I just want to refer to one of the historical fantasies to which he wishes to return us. 19th century Germany. What a success story! Just what we want to emulate. Even as other countries attempted to prevent their influences from entering, we should embrace it.
Reb Yid, learn some history. Real history, not the made up stuff the academic world regurgitates and not the children's versions. Read the primary documents, see what topics occupied the leaders of the 19th century.
Anything specific you would recommend?
Read memoirs written in real time. See what people revered and respected, how they wished to educate their children, what they considered success and failure.
If you don't read Yiddish, you will not be able to research much (which should, logically, lead to your not adopting an opinion. But that's a גזירה שאין רוב הציבור יכולין לעמוד בה), but the recently translated 'The Shochet' is pretty typical.
Try reading Zichron Yaakov, it's often the first place people look.
But honestly, 19th century Germany was a serious mistake of yours.
Let’s see, SR Hirsch, the Breuers, the Hildesheimers, Rav Avraham Eliyahu Kaplan and Rav YY Weinberg of the Berlin Rabbinical Seminary, Rav Pinchas Cohn and Naftali Carlebach( who brought Sara Schnirer’s dream to fruition after WW1, as did Dr. Leo Deutchlander and Rebbitzen Judith Grunfeld. Dr. Leon Jung brought his leadership to NY!s Upper West Side.
The relatively tiny German Jewish community ( a half million in 1939) had an even smaller Orthodox component . Not a bad list of giants of the spirit , with all the problems that German Orthodoxy admittedly faced.
When a person filibusters, adding names and issues that are wrong or irrelevant, the entire comment is rendered foolish.
Why are you mentioning people who did not grow up in Germany and were imported because of the paucity of local scholars?
Even the imports to Germany such as Kaplan and Weinberg and even Breuer were certainly of the Torah Im Derekh Eretz mindset. They shined as it were in Germany.
Hildesheimer, Rav DZ Hoffmann , Cohn, Carlebach , and the two Bais Yaakov of Crakow educators Dr. Deutchlander and Judith Grunfeld were German Orthodox Jews.
Rabbi Schwab זצ״ל found his “ footing “ In the Lithuanian yeshiva world, but he remained true to his upbringing in his outlook and activities.
The Torah im Derech Eretz model cannot be considered, based on its results, as a success.
They needed leaders who were educated in a different way, and were never able to sustain themselves. The Realschule had a horrific attrition rate, and when transported to the US, lasted about one and a half generations.
It was a nice try of Rabbi Hirsch, and a truly honest attempt at doing the right thing (unlike many who use him as a backup source, without the integrity that characterized him more than the shitah), but was ultimately untenable.
The Yeshiva world has produced many foot soldiers but time will tell whether we will see world quality Seforim as opposed to translations or even English Halacha and Hashkafa works . The RY of RIEztS and the next generation of RIETS RY are publishing superb sefarim on Halacha and Hashkafa together with mixed Hebrew and English sefarim
I live in retirement in Lakewood after years in Modern Orthodox rabbanus and Chinukh. The number of quality Seforim being published by Lakewood “lomdim” is quite large and impressive. Not as known or accessed as the quality RIETS RY , but the output is noteworthy.
As a person who was involved in the MO world in rabbanus and Chinuch do you sense interest in the war in Gaza the events in Iran etc or a sense that life goes on re preserving draft deferrals and worrying about Shidduchim being the paramount issues of concern in Lakewood?
I have commented elsewhere that I don’t blame “ the masses “ for not being tuned in to the issues in Israel in any deep dive. We are removed from that scene. I do blame the leadership here for not leading and educating on these issues . The average Jewish Joe here follows the standard Gedolim rhetoric without real understanding or insight. Again, I don’t blame Joe. His Rabbanim are at fault.
There is interest in what is going on but not a great sense of personal investment from 6000 miles away.
The Gemara in Shabbos in Perek Kol Kisvei ( 118-119) speaks strongly about leaders who do not properly lead and Rambam in Hilcos Teshuvah speaks even more strongly about those who wrap themselves in Mitzvos but who are Poresh Darchei HaTzibbur . It is indeed a sad statement on our times as we approach Tisha BAv that the preoccupation with draft deferrals and Shidduchim is seemingly a narcissistic attitude that is seen as more important than existential was being waged against all of Klal Yisrael with the clear objective of RL rendering this world Judenrein
Also YU Torah is an amazing site with great shiurim from RIETS RY snd other RY who have spoken in the RIETS Beis Medrash and elsewhere
How many of the sefarim by Lakewood Lomdim ever quote anything from RZYBS or anything from his talmidim Muvhakim or their talmidim Muvhakim ?
אם קבלה היא נקבל
So far, much of Rav Soloveitchik's stuff is either 'meh' or one trick repeated all over.
True broad scholarship escaped him and his students.
R Lichtenstein would beg to differ.
I am sure he would.
I am at a loss to understand what your criticism of Rav Soloveitchik’s output is or that of his Talmidim. What I have learned from the רשימות שיעורים if Rabbi Reichman, the quotes and insights found in the seforim of Rav Shechter, the volumes assembled by Rav Elyakim Koenigsberg, the איגרות הגרי״ד and his insights and analysis in Rav Lichtenstein’s own Seforim published by Har Etzion frankly are nothing less than brilliant.
Rabbi Soloveitchik was a one-trick pony. Yes, it's nice Torah, but essentially one big לשיטתו. He does not deal with the complications of sugyos, with multiple shitos and nuanced sevaros. He does Brisk and Brisk only.
The idea that Reshimos Shiurim is greatness can only come from someone who hasn't seen the other shiurim on those sugyos.
The shiurim of the Roshei Yeshiva in Ponovezh are many levels beyond Rabbi Soloveitchik's. The shiurim of Reb Yisroel Kalmanowitz are far above the level of Rabbi Soloveitchik. As are so many others.
Gantz fein, but not more than that.
I think that is quite the oversimplification of Rav Soloveitchik’s דרך הלימוד. What I like about it is that he gets to the יסודות הסוגיא so that instead of complicated mental gymnastics and calculations, the details of the סוגיא are drawn together. Like his uncle the גרי״ז and רב שך in the רבי עזרי.
OK , that is how my little brain works and why this appeals to me.
אלו ואלו וכו״
I did not mention RYBS I mentioned the current RYBS whose sefarim stand in their own right as great sefarim on a wide range of Chiddushei Torah Halacha and Hashkafa who are Gdolei Torah and whose sefarim all marked by The legacy of RYBS of a beginning middle and conclusion as to the discussion of any particular inyan