Disclaimer: I've never participated in the 'hen-waving' exercise, except once in a US yeshiva where all the bochrim huddled around a large table and a guy practically sprinted past us, chicken legs up dangling over everyone's heads - only prayer was that thing wouldn't poop un us. Additionally, we don't do Kapparos of any kind, and we hate giving tzedaka just as a general rule of thumb.
That said I'd first want to read up a bit on the Minhag, does the מאירי defend it in מגן אבות?
Re traditions from outside neighbors: Judaism was never in-a-vacuum tradition. Influences were always present - birth of Yeshiva and Muslim Madrasa. Shouldn't suprise either, ירמיהו, עזרא etc spoke about this. But should we throw out ציצית or ברית מילה because of it probably originating in some ANE culture or another? I don't think so, adoption is inevitable, the question is what does it signify within the tradition today. Does it make sense? Can it make sense? In this case you are probably right.
I'd also want to consider what minhag meant in premodern times (e.g. Rupture and Reconstruction) and what what it means today, should we reinstate it to what it was? Can we? We were given a Corpus, we should use it wisely.
I don’t think Judaism is largely pagan. I think Judaism was a real innovation in metaphysics compared to the thought of the world at the time. I think this innovation (monotheism) laid the groundwork for all future human progress in all fields. On the other hand there are still traces of pagan/polytheistic thinking in the current Jewish (and Christian/Muslim) understanding of the world. This has many negative knock on effects. I hope to expose as much of this as possible. Starting with the low hanging fruit.
"The problem is that Kapparos seem to hold a functional value for those that practice it nowadays not a symbolic one as we see from the prayer that is said." Doesn't seem to be all that different to me. Cf ויקרא ט"ז:כ"א
Understood. My point is that whatever you say there you can say here and vice versa. They don't appear—to me at least—to be all that fundamentally different from each other.
3 is blank! can you give a source for this information “Keep in mind that there is evidence of these rituals from pre-biblical times, dismantling the idea that these rituals could have been a cultural exchange from the Israelites” thanks
oops, yes, I will. As a side note Rambam even views Karbanos as basically a cultural exchange the other way, from the pagans to the Israelites, but God allowed the Jews to continue the practice albeit towards Him. A radically new understanding! Which as you will see is basically how I view Kapparos, a cultural exchange from outside sources that we allow but reoriented towards Jewish ideas
Is Judaism (largely) Pagan?
Likely. But so what.
Disclaimer: I've never participated in the 'hen-waving' exercise, except once in a US yeshiva where all the bochrim huddled around a large table and a guy practically sprinted past us, chicken legs up dangling over everyone's heads - only prayer was that thing wouldn't poop un us. Additionally, we don't do Kapparos of any kind, and we hate giving tzedaka just as a general rule of thumb.
That said I'd first want to read up a bit on the Minhag, does the מאירי defend it in מגן אבות?
Re traditions from outside neighbors: Judaism was never in-a-vacuum tradition. Influences were always present - birth of Yeshiva and Muslim Madrasa. Shouldn't suprise either, ירמיהו, עזרא etc spoke about this. But should we throw out ציצית or ברית מילה because of it probably originating in some ANE culture or another? I don't think so, adoption is inevitable, the question is what does it signify within the tradition today. Does it make sense? Can it make sense? In this case you are probably right.
I'd also want to consider what minhag meant in premodern times (e.g. Rupture and Reconstruction) and what what it means today, should we reinstate it to what it was? Can we? We were given a Corpus, we should use it wisely.
Great sources thx!
I don’t think Judaism is largely pagan. I think Judaism was a real innovation in metaphysics compared to the thought of the world at the time. I think this innovation (monotheism) laid the groundwork for all future human progress in all fields. On the other hand there are still traces of pagan/polytheistic thinking in the current Jewish (and Christian/Muslim) understanding of the world. This has many negative knock on effects. I hope to expose as much of this as possible. Starting with the low hanging fruit.
Thank you for this piece. It is a vital one to spread.
Superb!! Interesting, lucid, trenchant.
"The problem is that Kapparos seem to hold a functional value for those that practice it nowadays not a symbolic one as we see from the prayer that is said." Doesn't seem to be all that different to me. Cf ויקרא ט"ז:כ"א
(כא) וְסָמַךְ אַהֲרֹן אֶת שְׁתֵּי יָדָו עַל רֹאשׁ הַשָּׂעִיר הַחַי וְהִתְוַדָּה עָלָיו אֶת כׇּל עֲוֺנֹת בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל וְאֶת כׇּל פִּשְׁעֵיהֶם לְכׇל חַטֹּאתָם וְנָתַן אֹתָם עַל רֹאשׁ הַשָּׂעִיר וְשִׁלַּח בְּיַד אִישׁ עִתִּי הַמִּדְבָּרָה. (כב) וְנָשָׂא הַשָּׂעִיר עָלָיו אֶת כׇּל עֲוֺנֹתָם אֶל אֶרֶץ גְּזֵרָה וְשִׁלַּח אֶת הַשָּׂעִיר בַּמִּדְבָּר.
Rambam deals with this specifically in the Moreh as I quoted
Understood. My point is that whatever you say there you can say here and vice versa. They don't appear—to me at least—to be all that fundamentally different from each other.
You can say but it is not said
This fellow also differentiates btwn them: https://www.orharambam.com/post/%D7%9C%D7%9E%D7%94-%D7%94%D7%97%D7%A8%D7%93%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%9E%D7%AA%D7%A2%D7%9C%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%91%D7%AA%D7%A8%D7%A0%D7%92%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%9D, if you're interested in checking it out. Also, you may be interested in: https://click.mlsend.com/link/c/YT0yNTg3OTUyMzUwMzYyNjA1Njc3JmM9cjRzNyZlPTAmYj0xMzcyMzM5ODExJmQ9cTV2MGg4eA==.339kIYkgjkn-4iEoYsVg48FAW4bDv2UP7DFOgloNkwM . Enjoyed the article and appreciate your style. GCT
Thanks 🙏
סידור אזור אליהו, the purest GRA siddur, has kapparos!
3 is blank! can you give a source for this information “Keep in mind that there is evidence of these rituals from pre-biblical times, dismantling the idea that these rituals could have been a cultural exchange from the Israelites” thanks
oops, yes, I will. As a side note Rambam even views Karbanos as basically a cultural exchange the other way, from the pagans to the Israelites, but God allowed the Jews to continue the practice albeit towards Him. A radically new understanding! Which as you will see is basically how I view Kapparos, a cultural exchange from outside sources that we allow but reoriented towards Jewish ideas
I 100% agree that kaparos was brought in from other cultures! I just haven’t ever seen evidence that there were rituals done pre biblical times
I’ll add the references but you can just do a quick google for “scapegoat” rituals and you’ll see them in many ancient cultures