There's one simple thing that any yeshiva with a desire to foster excellence and intellectual rigor could implement tomorrow: mandatory exams and marks with pass/fail thresholds.
That wouldn't necessarily address the idealism of the 19th (or mid-20th) Century yeshiva, but it would at least restore academic standards.
I believe that the reason no yeshiva (to my knowledge) has done that, is because they value inclusivity and accessibility over excellence. Perhaps they're correct.
Beis medrash is never empty because guys stay up till 3AM learning and guys awake at 3am to learn....Guys finishing large portions of shas and getting tested on it...most of the yeshiva getting rigorously tested on a masechta per year plus the previous years masechtos....
I also went to a Yeshiva where guys would routinely stay up into the early morning hours handling the sugya but...from my perspective nothing was "getting done". They would spend an entire Zman ripping apart a few blatt gemara and come out with very little.
Unlike the ways of back then, if anyone dare writes or concludes different than what today's achronim, he's done for. This was never the way.
There was a responsibility in learning knowing that you were given the weight to decide on your own. Today everyone has fear and it's just about regurgitating what was already written (peeling the onion so to speak).
I don’t know how to ask a question—if the goal was long ago to educate for the fear of heaven, it seems that the physical area and its accomplished ones have been destroyed. But is, was there a remnant? It seems that this should not have been a waste of either investment in eternal values or the education. Because isn’t this our purpose?
One can suggest that while today’s yeshivos have a quantity of bachurim and avrechim that far surpasses the great pre war yeshivos we by no means have quality in terms of the sefarim being produced Translating sefarim or writing English works on Halacha or even writing for ArtScroll is all important for a generation that is still growing in awareness or appreciation for Ameilus BaTorah but producing excellent editions of Rishonim and Acharonim ( as opposed to just reprinting old sefarim with nice covers and indices) is the province of great Talmidei Chachamim and such enterprises as Mossad HaRav Kook and Machon Yerushalyim
The question remains what great sefarim has the Yeshiva world produced that have revolutionized the way we learn such as Chiddushei R ChAim Chiddushei HaGriz CI etc
Yeshiva education today is a necessity for Jewish continuity as opposed to being a home for the greatest potential Talmidei Chachamim That is a simple sociological fact
I've commonly heard that this shift from "excellence to de riguer" of yeshiva learning was a result of attempting to rebuild as a result of the holocaust (I believe this was spurred on by the Chazon Ish, but again feel free to correct me). I also read the below on this same topic and it absolutely floored me:
"Rabbi Eliyahu Eliezer Dessler (1892–1953) understood the risk involved in educating toward greatness, since focusing on the elite few could alienate the less talented. Still, in a 1951 letter, Dessler (2000: 357) explained that “the Lithuanian yeshiva heads … set as their main objective to educate great ones in Torah and fear of heaven. Hence, they prohibited students from attending university. They realized that the only way to achieve this was to concentrate all their energies and the energies of their students exclusively on Torah learning. They were well aware that many yeshiva students who were not able to deal with this extreme lifestyle would leave religious observance. That was the price they had to pay to create gedolei Torah.”"
I think this needs to shift immensely. There's a school where I live in Los Angeles that has emblazoned on one of it's outer walls, "חֲנֹ֣ךְ לַ֭נַּעַר עַל־פִּ֣י דַרְכּ֑וֹ גַּ֥ם כִּי־יַ֝זְקִ֗ין לֹֽא־יָס֥וּר מִמֶּֽנָּה׃" (Mishlei 22:6)
I believe the school chose this mantra because it's obviously an important idea now and historically but more importantly for our discussion I believe they are trying to cater to a demographic who just wants the best for their children regardless of its in the academy or the beis medrash, which I think they realize is more necessarily emphasized as a result of what you've noted in your article and what I've written above.
I'll just quote a story of someone I met who sent two of his kids to 2 different schools from vastly different sides of the religious spectrum which piqued my interest. I asked him what the purpose of the switch was and he said my older child was in a more right-wing school and there they don't teach my child they teach an agenda, to be a gadol in Torah is the ideal. With my younger child I noticed I wanted my child as an individual to be taught, so I sent him to a more modern institution.
There's one simple thing that any yeshiva with a desire to foster excellence and intellectual rigor could implement tomorrow: mandatory exams and marks with pass/fail thresholds.
That wouldn't necessarily address the idealism of the 19th (or mid-20th) Century yeshiva, but it would at least restore academic standards.
I believe that the reason no yeshiva (to my knowledge) has done that, is because they value inclusivity and accessibility over excellence. Perhaps they're correct.
I have been in yeshiva that has exams...it produces excellent students.
Ha! Half the yeshiva would be in the streets. The other half would finally feel accomplished.
Brilliant. I'm subbing.
Now if possible, do one about the Talmud Torah concept that required learning math, languages, dikduk, and more. This approach also died with the war.
Excellent post.
It is a quality versus quantity argument.
I will steelman and say that among the top yeshivos there does exists pre ww2 excellence .
I don’t see it
I have been in them.
Beis medrash is never empty because guys stay up till 3AM learning and guys awake at 3am to learn....Guys finishing large portions of shas and getting tested on it...most of the yeshiva getting rigorously tested on a masechta per year plus the previous years masechtos....
Is anything novel being learnt?
novel as in ?
I also went to a Yeshiva where guys would routinely stay up into the early morning hours handling the sugya but...from my perspective nothing was "getting done". They would spend an entire Zman ripping apart a few blatt gemara and come out with very little.
Nope...one guy got smicha in daled chelekei shilchan aruch..admittedly he was an outlier but still..
Unlike the ways of back then, if anyone dare writes or concludes different than what today's achronim, he's done for. This was never the way.
There was a responsibility in learning knowing that you were given the weight to decide on your own. Today everyone has fear and it's just about regurgitating what was already written (peeling the onion so to speak).
Yeshiva inflation:
One Yeshiva back then is worth 500 Yeshivas today
Someone is sounding a bit like Rabbi Nathan Lopez Cardozo... (who I often greatly enjoy!)
Nicely written. I believe there is a quip out there (attributed to the CI?) about modern yeshivos doing away with both amaratzim as well as gedolim.
Did you read Yashiva by Chaim Grade?
Lots of really great points were made here, Yitz. A job well done!
I don’t know how to ask a question—if the goal was long ago to educate for the fear of heaven, it seems that the physical area and its accomplished ones have been destroyed. But is, was there a remnant? It seems that this should not have been a waste of either investment in eternal values or the education. Because isn’t this our purpose?
Do we need religious elites? Or do we need more than majority observance?
One can suggest that while today’s yeshivos have a quantity of bachurim and avrechim that far surpasses the great pre war yeshivos we by no means have quality in terms of the sefarim being produced Translating sefarim or writing English works on Halacha or even writing for ArtScroll is all important for a generation that is still growing in awareness or appreciation for Ameilus BaTorah but producing excellent editions of Rishonim and Acharonim ( as opposed to just reprinting old sefarim with nice covers and indices) is the province of great Talmidei Chachamim and such enterprises as Mossad HaRav Kook and Machon Yerushalyim
The question remains what great sefarim has the Yeshiva world produced that have revolutionized the way we learn such as Chiddushei R ChAim Chiddushei HaGriz CI etc
Yeshiva education today is a necessity for Jewish continuity as opposed to being a home for the greatest potential Talmidei Chachamim That is a simple sociological fact
I've commonly heard that this shift from "excellence to de riguer" of yeshiva learning was a result of attempting to rebuild as a result of the holocaust (I believe this was spurred on by the Chazon Ish, but again feel free to correct me). I also read the below on this same topic and it absolutely floored me:
"Rabbi Eliyahu Eliezer Dessler (1892–1953) understood the risk involved in educating toward greatness, since focusing on the elite few could alienate the less talented. Still, in a 1951 letter, Dessler (2000: 357) explained that “the Lithuanian yeshiva heads … set as their main objective to educate great ones in Torah and fear of heaven. Hence, they prohibited students from attending university. They realized that the only way to achieve this was to concentrate all their energies and the energies of their students exclusively on Torah learning. They were well aware that many yeshiva students who were not able to deal with this extreme lifestyle would leave religious observance. That was the price they had to pay to create gedolei Torah.”"
I think this needs to shift immensely. There's a school where I live in Los Angeles that has emblazoned on one of it's outer walls, "חֲנֹ֣ךְ לַ֭נַּעַר עַל־פִּ֣י דַרְכּ֑וֹ גַּ֥ם כִּי־יַ֝זְקִ֗ין לֹֽא־יָס֥וּר מִמֶּֽנָּה׃" (Mishlei 22:6)
I believe the school chose this mantra because it's obviously an important idea now and historically but more importantly for our discussion I believe they are trying to cater to a demographic who just wants the best for their children regardless of its in the academy or the beis medrash, which I think they realize is more necessarily emphasized as a result of what you've noted in your article and what I've written above.
I'll just quote a story of someone I met who sent two of his kids to 2 different schools from vastly different sides of the religious spectrum which piqued my interest. I asked him what the purpose of the switch was and he said my older child was in a more right-wing school and there they don't teach my child they teach an agenda, to be a gadol in Torah is the ideal. With my younger child I noticed I wanted my child as an individual to be taught, so I sent him to a more modern institution.